The Published Author Podcast
The Published Author Podcast

Episode 99 · 4 months ago

Find Your Book Idea And Make It Irresistible w/ Tamsen Webster

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How do you come up with the right idea for your book? How do you make sure that idea is irresistible? In this episode, Tamsen shares answers to those questions, taken from her book Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible. Her strategies and tactics are the same ones she’s used to work with organizations like Johnson & Johnson, Harvard Medical School, and Intel, and in her roles as the former Executive Producer and current Idea Strategist for TEDx Cambridge.

Tamsen's Links:

Welcome to the published author podcast, where we help entrepreneurs learn how to write a book and leverage it to grow their business and make an impact on your host of Josh Steinle. A A my guest is Tamson Webster Tamson is part. Strategist part storyteller, part English to English. Translator, Tamson helps experts, drive action with their ideas and Tamson. has this red thread approach we're just talking before the recording about where red thread came from? Maybe we can ask her to tell us about that, but she's used this to work with major organizations like Johnson and Johnson, Harvard Medical School Intel and with hundreds of individual founders, academics and thought leaders, she is a former TEDX executive producer and she's an idea, strategist she's. Also the author of find your red thread, make your big ideas irresistible, which is something all of us want to do. As Authors Thamson. Welcome to the show, Oh hello, Josh delighted to be here so Tamson give us a little bit more background on who you are and where you came from and how you ended up as an author, how you created your red thread approach and that's a big question right there, but sure yeah, it's a big one! Yeah I became an author very reluctantly re with much resistance, but how I got to this place was that I often found myself in the position of as I like to call English to English translator, where I was whether it was in marketing or whether it was in my own personal life or whatever, really in the in the in the mode of trying to take ideas and information from one group of people and make them attractive, empower ring effective for another group of people, and I saw certain things happen over and over again that made that very difficult either for other people or to be honest in certain cases, for myself things like all right. Where do I start, like I hate having a blank page, which is part of where the reluctance you know from from writing a book piece started, but also a thing that I would see if I tend to work with people who are very technically expert. They have spent a lot of time doing the work that they've been doing and, as a result, have a very difficult time, speaking about their work and anything other than the most technical of language, and so I was trying to figure out. How do I get the the incredible power of even those ideas out in easy way? So about five years ago I took a bunch of different threads of my life pen, not intended from marketing and brand strategy to the issues I found with translating marketing and positioning to day to day content when I work for an advertising agency seeing the tension between marketing and sales. So there's what you say that you want to do from a marketing standpoint, but then your sales people are actually need something quite different, plus things that I learned moonlighting is a weight watchers leader about how people actually make those decisions, and the role that I found myself in as a ted ex executive producer, helping people bring their ideas to a thetic stage. I was like all right. I got to let's take all this together and figure out a way to make that easier, and the red thread is the result. So tell us that story again: Where does the red thread come from? What is the red thread? What's the origin story of that name? Well, the approach actually didn't have that name. When I first started with that five years ago I came up with the approach first and I think that's actually an important thing, for I think other aspiring or new or desiring of publishing the next thing authors to hear that I really I had. I had the approach that I was using that had these five components that was rooted in storytelling and more specifically, the story that we tell ourselves to justify what we do, but I also knew that calling it goal problem truth change action was not exactly going to fly from marketing perspective and separately. I had had...

...this Kentucke away in my mind, this wonderful idiom that two different Swedish clients used and they would they would ask about the main idea of something you know the kind of the thing that made this all make sense in the terms of what they would say was the red thread of this, and I just love that, because it was such a vituall, tangible embodiment of a thing that we as humans look for when we read a book or see it talk or get new information or meet somebody for the first time, we're constantly looking for will get well what ties this together? What ties this to me- and I went researching why the Swedish call it the red thread like why. Why do they do that and as you and I were talking about before the call, there are red threads in just about every major inviter religion and philosophy, e and culture all around the world. So there's there's one in eastern philosophy, but the general agreement is that the Swedish northern European idiom finds its roots in the Greek legend of theseus, the Minotaur that half man, half bull monster and the labyrinth in which that Minotaur lived and the red thread was, as Legend tells it, how theseus traced his path to the Minotaur and the center of the Labyrinth. So after killing the Minataur, he could find his way back out and that process. So a the story was just great on it. So I was like this is fabulous, but that process of Fin, like retracing your steps, so that you could find your way back out again very much mimic this process that had come up with. So you know when I had a great dinner with some great friends of mine one night and I was like. I can't call up this thing and I was like well, but there's this other thing and they're like Oh, my gosh. Why are you not already calling at that and the red thread with its current name? What's born got it? So what is that process? Can you walk us through from a high level? What is this process? What's the red thread, formula process method that you use with your clients? The big idea behind the red thread is that the most powerful way to make your ideas irresistible to somebody else is to essentially pre construct the story that they will tell themselves about why your idea is a good one. We do this anyway, I mean we humans will come up with these stories. If we read a book or we could get a new idea and oftentimes pre consciously without is realizing it. We are rationalizing for ourselves why that new idea does or doesn't make sense period or to why a desert doesn't make sense for us, so the book? What really operates from this idea of well, if you want to make sure that your idea is as powerful as understandable as raise the probability of success as high as possible on your explanation of your idea, why not just build that story that your audience will tell themselves about your idea from their perspective in the first place. So that's a big idea: it has five components, five major components and they map to once upon a time stories. So, while these subconscious rationalizations that we tell ourselves don't necessarily say well once upon a time I was born, you know in this place once it yeah it. We do still look for those same elements that are in once upon a time story, is to understand and make sense of why things work the way they do. We want to understand people's intent. What are they trying to accomplish and that that maps to the first element of my red thread, which is what we call the goal and that's the audience's goal? What's the thing that they're looking for? Why would they be interested in your idea, because it helps them achieve something that they're looking for right now or solve a problem? The next major element, as a story, is a problem that gets in the way and it's a problem that the character doesn't know about in the first place and that maps...

...to the stories that we tell ourselves by really creating contrast between what most people do and what kind of another option with another perspective might look like. So this creates, in my red thread, the problem of perspective. What's the difference in view that people are taking, you know kind of conventional wisdom versus what's another way to look at the situation. The third element also from stories- and this is in many ways the most important in all stories have what's known as a moment of truth, and that's a moment where the main character realize is something that makes that problem that they've been introduced to absolutely impossible to ignore and that thing that they realize in this moment of truth, really forces them to make a choice. It forces them to choose between what they believe to be true. What they really want and what they've been doing so far, and so, when we're creating these stories for ourselves, these red threads for our audience, we need something similar. So that third element is what I reduced to calling a truth statement, so something that somebody already or readily believes is true. That puts what they want in jeopardy as long as they ignore that problem that you've introduced last. I was sorry the fourth piece. Remember: It forces a choice. So the fourth piece is a change. So what do they do differently? What is that shift and thinking your behavior that happens and so that maps over so we've got goal problem, truth change? What is that high level shift and thinking your behavior that your idea represents and then in stories you know the they may make a decision, but the story doesn't end there. It is a wile. What do they do as a result, and so that maps back to the red thread and what I call the actions and that's what somebody needs to do to make the change that you're arguing for your idea what they need to do make that complete. So those are the five main things a goal, something people want problem of perspective, it's getting in the way, a moment of truth. That makes that problem impossible to ignore a change as that results right that resolves attention and gets them the goal that they're looking for and the actions that they need to take in order to get it, and even those are the five main ones just like in a regular story. When we really know a story is over when we've gone back to the beginning and we've seen whether or not somebody's gotten what they really wanted. Essentially that's what the red thread does to. We find it linearly, but it really works almost in a circle, so it kind of comes back at the end and says so because all this is true and if you make this change and if you put these actions, actions into place, you're going to get that goal that you're looking for at the beginning. So this is really useful for authors, I'm thinking about people. Listening to this I mean this is a recipe for writing a better book producing something that's more useful for the reading audience. Yes, that is my intense and I've got a lot of clients that have used this to help clarify the big idea behind their book that have used it to structure the book. My own book, it's very metal. It follows this structure. So there's a night there is a there's, a red thread of a book, there's the red thread of each chapter, and I expose that so there's kind of like an x ray into the book so that somebody can not only read the book for the content, but they can also read the book to see how you can use the approach to write a book length piece of content M God. Can you walk us through some stories of clients? You've worked with. Maybe it's authors. Maybe it's companies, maybe it's entrepreneurs, but can you tell us walk us through a case study or two of how they implemented the red thread in their business or with their book or whatever they were doing? Yeah I mean there's a there's, a bunch I mean, I think. Probably since you've got authors listening, that's you know the two main ways that authors tend to use. It are either to prepare to write their book or to get it published or sold, because even hybrid publishers, for instance, still want to understand very quickly...

...what your idea is and, as I know from talking with a hired publishers, they don't usually get a twenty second answer. They usually get a twenty minute answer when they, when, when they ask that question of people, so what's the book about and the retreads really designed to help people get from a twenty minute answer down to a twenty second answer and then be able to keep talking about it for twenty minutes. So that's one the one place and then the second place, typically where people use it is to is to build out a talk that goes along with the book once they've written it. So, as we all know, you know a book can be. You know anywhere from you, decide how many words but right, twelve thousand a D. fifty sixty eighty thousand words, but a forty five minute talk right, can can only really be in the in the realm of let's say: If you do a. If you do a hundred and sixty words a minute, then it can only ever be in the realm of like seventy two hundred words right. So how do you take an idea that can fill that many pages and take it into ten percent of the space and the answers you? Don't you figure out what angle on the book or what big concept from the book that isn't the book you can write about, but you has for specific case studies, so I do a lot of that work. For instance, I say I probably one of the best examples I can give for that kind of okay. Let's do a talk that a company is of the work of a book is one of my Teni speakers, so I still work actively with tenax Cambridge. It's one of nine legacy level Ted ex events in the world. So it's one of the top nine events and we work almost exclusively at tennis, Cambridge, with primary researchers, academic scholars. So in a lot of cases they have just written a book on all of this stuff and that's what we're trying to get into a talk. That's three to eighteen minutes. So it's so this way. So let me give an example of really at the extreme kind of complicated idea, and then I can give an idea that that's you know more on the motivational speaker and as well, except if I can think of anybody who would have troubled distilling their idea down to fifteen minutes. It's probably academics, it. Yes, it is, and it's not because they don't know their stuff and it's not because they don't speak about all the time they do. But the the A tax time knows so much stuff. That's the thing! That's right and they see all the new wants and it's painful for them and I think, probably literally physically painful for them to not be able to capture all of the new ones and everything that they say every time. So the real challenge is well. How can we give something that that allows for the concepts like so that we have something that we present in simple enough concepts that anybody could understand, but those concepts are chosen well enough that they can contain all the nuance in the sophistication that could be in there right. So I'm going to the best example I can give recently is. As a is an author named an academic name, Caleb Shari few works. I believe that a Columbia- and he is an astro physicist literally- and so he has this. He has this big idea that humans aren't fully human and but not in the way that we may have think thought right. So it's kind of like in the last twenty years, where we've discovered that we are more bacteria than human, and so we've got all gotten used to this idea of the micro bioman so that he is a person or, as a human, are actually living constantly in exchange with the microbiome that is both within us and without us right. So we've come to accept that Caleb argues that the same thing is true for us, but in terms of the data and the information that would create so he's arguing for the fact that we aren't just fully human. We are...

...actually in a symbiotic relationship with what he calls the data home, so it's the equivalent of a Michael Bio, but it's the information that we create so walking through this. You know, following these five steps that we were talking about before. We really have to anchor this in an a question or a concept that most people would be asking of themselves, or that would be curiously so we're identifying this and- and we decided in the context of you, know the data Um- that that a lot of people are really curious when it comes to ai and information about what is the future going to look like in the way that we ended up talking about it was? Is it going to be like Star Trek where there's a there's a there's, a friendly, useful, productive interaction between human and data, or is it going to be like blade, runner and Mad Max? where, like it's everybody out for themselves, and it's just to stop an waste land like which way are we gone understanding? Of course that's an extreme piece, and so then the next? So that's the question right. That's what kind of gets people to say? Okay, this is the intent behind the talk. It's going to help you answer this question: That's the goal of the audience. So the next piece is this problem of perspective. In other words, when people are answering that questions, where do where do we tend to put our attention? Where do we tend to put our focus verses? Where does where does Caleb in this case? Want us to start thinking about putting our focus and notice? This isn't what to do. Instead, this is kind of where to look and how to think instead and so the way that we set. That up was to say well, you know when most people are trying to figure out how to like figuring out which direction we're going a lot of times. The questions that follow or what do I need to do like what are the steps that we need to take to avoid? You know this dystopian future and make it more like star track. What can we do? What can what algorithms can we fix? What are the one of the steps that we can take? You know what sustainability and issues can we couldn't take into place and is can says, that's not wrong, but we're focused so much on that that we're actually missing that what makes us who we are so we're focused so much on what we need to do. That's the first perspective that we're not as focused on actually what makes us who we are and then there's this moment of truth piece right so there's this concept that we need to introduce that makes people go. Oh okay! I got to pay attention to that who we are pease and the way that we summarize that truth statement for Kala was that with a statement that most people would agree with outside of his idea that we are, as we are controlled by the information we create right. That and most people would agree with that, like I make a to do list that governs my day, most people would agree that you know for good or for ill. We are controlled by the algorithms that serve up information to us in a way, so we are controlled by the information we create nother, as we are controlled by this living system that he refers to as the Dado. So now you see, we haven't introduced any really technical concepts here, but there's a you ideas behind this and so really what's. The change, then, is to kind of look at ourselves through this grander lens of the data home and really use that to guide our decisions and projections about the future, so that we can reclaim agency in control of that direction. So- and I gues you know, gives some specific things that we will do in advance, but this is how we don't have to go in and explain like the super details of what he means by data on like over the course of the talk yeah we're talking about what creates a living system. How are humans different than other other animals? Really, the primary way that we are different from other animals is in our creation of information that lasts past us in a way that others can come and read, use as the example of Shakespeare. You know so there's these other things, but the core concepts come down to...

...which, where are we going star, trek or blade runner? We focus on more on what we need to do. then. What makes us who we are we're controlled by the information we create and therefore, if we really want to understand which way we're going to go, we need to understand our role with information, our relationship to information in a completely different way, one that, under that really takes into account the fact that this is a symbiotic relationship. So that's the very complicated idea boiled down into five statements. Quick break here. Are You an entrepreneur? Do you want to write a book that will help you grow? Your Business Visit published author Com ere? We have programs to fit every budget programs that will help you right and publish your book in As little as ninety days, starting at just thirty nine oars per month or if you're too busy to write your book, we'll interview you and then write and publish your book for You, don't let the valuable knowledge and experience you have go to waste head on over to published author Com to get the help you need to become a published author. You've already waited long enough. Do it today now back to the show that is super interesting in the whole idea with the red thread is that you can take a complex idea like calebs, and then you can simplify it. I don't know, if simplifies the right word, but you can put it into chunks that normal people who are not astrophysicists can understand the process and then do something with yeah exactly and that's the whole point, and this is why I say the work that I do is translation right, so we haven't taken anything like we are successful. I am successful when I win the the author of the academic. The idea creator agrees that we have taken nothing away from the idea like that. Those are those are still accurate ways to describe what he's talking about and that each of those statements serves as a container for the deeper information and that that's it. I mean to me that that's that's the goal, because, if you can take, you know your you know in Kakis case, like thirty forty year, not forty aging him, thirty years of like deep work and astro physicist astrophysics and astro biology and and get it so that the core explanation, the core argument of his of his idea. We can nail it in five sentences. Well then, he has now the full range of everything in between to be able to talk about his idea, so he can talk about it to all his fellow astrophysicists and such and he can write a book length book on it which he already had done. It's called the ascent of information by the way great book, and he can talk about it in eighteen minutes and he can talk about it in sixty seconds and that's really the goal. That's when you know you you have been able to articulate your idea inside and out is when you can kind of run that whole Gamin and most of us, though, stay in that kind of limited technical explanation of our ideas. We don't open up to this simpler version and really that's what the my book is meant to help people do got it yeah. I mean it really is translation because you're not taking anything away, you're, giving him access to a new audience the same way as if somebody writes a book and Russian well, they only have access to the people who understand Russian, but if you can translate it in English, accurately you're not taking anything away, just because it's not Russian anymore you're communicating the same ideas, but now you've opened up to an entirely new audience who can appreciate that use it and you're able to serve them now? Yes, you could only love that I will give credit to you, but I would that that is. That is a wonderful way to explain the benefit of the translation pieces, the giving access to a new audience. Now, when we talk about your own author journey, there was a point of choice where you had to choose. Do I write a book? Do I not write a book? You said You were a reluctant author, talk to us a little...

...bit about the choice that you made when you said you know what I've got to turn this idea into a book. It's not enough to just talk about it and teach it. I need to write a book I so a couple things came into play with that. One of the reasons why I was reluctant is because I never considered myself to be a writer which is just an absolute mental block, because you, after sustaining a newsletter like essentially weekly for three or four years, there's a point at which you have to go. Okay, wait! You like I do this, but another thing that kind of got in my way, and this might be a thing that a lot of people run into as well. As that I had in my mind that this had to be like a big book. I mean like big ideas like it. You know like I had to be glad Wellin or Dan Pinky in or Seff Godi and you know, go dinin. I guess it would be yeah from the outset and that kind of pressure to like make it big was paralyzing frankly for me, so I spoke with a good friend of mine and Hanley, who she herself has written a book called everybody right and that's a fantastic book to t is a great book, and so I was like and like. Why is this so hard because in this case like I know, I know this idea inside and out and it was- I was more paralyzed by you know. I can talk about this idea in any way possible like I can talk about it from this perspective of that sect. A really tactical perspective of a big idea, perspective and and gave me. I think, the single best piece of advice that I have for writing the book and she said, write the book. That's easiest to write and she says in don't even think about Nessis. A book like you know could be any book could be something else he just like right. What's the book, that's easiest to write is like well that that I know- and that is the real tactical- how to piece of this, which is essentially capturing what I do one on one with clients in book form. That's super easy I didn't have to like, because I know that I know that backwards and Floris is how I spend all my day and that, because I had been doing that work with clients for five plus years. All of those explanations were already really tightly hound already and it that made it easier to write. It meant that I needed to let go of this big idea of peace, but it also meant that it could do what I needed to do better, which is, I made a conscious decision when I started my own business, that I wasn't creating a company more than so much as as creating practice, and that's that's a delineation at that. An author and consultant a Matt Church makes is like. Are you? Is it a company or is it a practice, meaning a company? Is this idea, where it's kind of like it's built to grow and to sell right versus a practice which is like you know, think about you know a law practice or a dental practice or a medical practice like what did you do in the work right and you're? Not It's an extension of you yeah, it's extension of yeah and I was very clear from the Gecko that I was not. I had no interest in empire building. I just wanted to do this work, but I also believe in this approach because I've seen it work and I am only one person, so this kind of combination- I've writ the book- that's Ess, to write, which was this, how to and and what I do with my clients helps me solve that problem of I'm one person which is for people who don't have the time, money, inclination whatever to work with me on one or one or I just I don't have the time. This was a way to allow people to have some kind of access of like Tamsin, on their shoulder without having to work with beyond one on one. So it was really a way to be able to capture that for folks and that's how I went into it was. Let me just give people a way to do this. Get it give him as much information as I can, so they can get as close as possible on their own, as I can get them without my being actually physically there. So what were some of the decisions you had to make wallring the book, while...

...you're in the middle of it in terms of do include this? Do I not include this? How far do I go and then how do I actually wrap this up and finish this, because there's always more that you can add, there's always more that you can refine? How? How do you decide what's enough, so I think one of the biggest shifts in the beginning when it went from like big idea book to and I'd like to think it's there's still a big idea behind this book, but instead you know what I mean. Instead of being this kind of like here's, the idea. Now you go figure out on your own. How To do it? I really wanted to be like here's, the big idea and here's how you do it in a book. I think that big shift was was kind of flipping the structure around meaning that a lot of those big idea books are very, very story based, which is, I know, a little bit ironic, given the fact that this is based in story structure, my approach, but the one of the biggest first things to do that I cut when I decided to write the book that was easier to write. was these kind of you know these deep, fascinating stories that introduced every chapter and basically said you know what I'm going to I'm going to write this kind of like a journalist or write it, I'm going to use a pyramid model and that I'm going to write it so that the the detail gets added. As you read in a chapter rather than kind of, though this is unfair to food bloggers and will create, rather than the food blogger model of. Let me tell you all of this stuff and then finally put the recipe at the end, so that was probably one of the biggest shifts, which is say every chapter opens with a red thread. I you know what I call a story line, which I show the five. You know the five big concepts like in like that story. That you'll tell yourself about that. It opens with that and then tells you exactly kind of what what we're building what it looks like when it's successful what the criteria are that it needs to be, and then I go into more detail. If you need it about how do you find it? What do you do if you get Stucko? So I think that was a big shift that I made was like, and it's not that there aren't stories in there there's just not this. It doesn't open with you. No one thousand nine hundred and tirty four Salvador Dolly saw a picture right, like which I, which you know the version that I sent to some book agents. You had that kind of thing in it, so I got that. I think the other big decisions were how deep to go at certain things, because this is as we're talking about like there's, there's an extraordinary nuance and this and there's all sorts of different tools and techniques that I use. If I'm you know, if I need to like take one on one client, one next level, and so there was a and there's so I really in those in that area, there's really two things that we made the decision to not put in the in the book. One was a way that helps clarify exactly what that goal. Question is even further in the context of how ready, willing or able somebody is to make the change, and I knew because I was writing the book. At the same time, I was running a mastermind where I was contesting some of these concepts that that dive into that second level exercise was too deep. It just it didn't work, so we ended up pulling it. Anybody who bought preorder the book or you can still get it. You know if you buy multiple copies of the book and then send us a proof of purchase. We could still get this. We ended up taking that same information and putting it in a bonus chapter. So so I created a chapter: That's in that's a there was a bonus for bok buys or many both guys where we took that concept and then and use it in the context of adapting okay. Great you've got to come Oveh one red red. How do you adapt that to additional audiences, different applications, etc?...

So that was one thing that we decided not to put in then we put it back in as a bonus chapter and the second thing that I elected not to put in again, because I thought it would just be too much information too much detail was a worksheet that I tend to use with my one on one clients to help kind, O get started and to Polish up at the end, and that was a tool I called the conversational case, and that also became a book bonus for folks, and I still use it one on one, but I also still believe it was the right choice not to include that additional tool in the book. So it really was just kind of keeping it to the core information so that if people wanted more information, they would be more interested in you know, following up with I mean I I doing a workshop or one on one work to those kinds of things. Now you often say we who is giving you advice, who is mentoring you through this process? I know you were worked with page to as the publisher, so were you working with them? Were there other people was and handley giving you advice on this like who are the people who are helping you out and what car were they providing the the the very first first person that helped me out with this was a wonderful editor, a freelance editor she's she's, a book coach and all sorts of other things named Debora, ager, ager and she's the person that really helped take the book from this kind of big idea book in one thousand nine hundred and tirty four to the structure that you see it today. She really helped me kind of slim it down the the from a kind of format structure. What am I trying to do? Who is this for that kind of thing? She really helped me get started there, so I wasn't a that, helped me that put it so that when I was putting together the first draft for page two and their editors, I I think I spun my wheels a lot less than I might have otherwise, because I'd really work with Deber to help create the the outline for the book. Once I was with page two, so they've got a couple layers of editors, so they have a developmental editor and then a copy editor, and it was really the development editor in this case Kendra. I'm spacing on Our Name Right now, last name, I'm going to look it up, so I give him full credit that she was the one that you know ev reading it with fresh eyes and reading it to someone who didn't already know my work, she was the one that really felt that, like that extra step, that one that we eventually pulled out and turn into an extra chapter, she's the she was, the one that was Kendrew rd is her name. She was the one that really had those kinds of made, those kinds of calls and helped me talk those through same thing. She was also the one that helped me decide not to put the conversational case tool in there and to reserve it for later. So she was really good at understanding. What somebody who wasn't already familiar with my work would be able to process, and so she was very helpful and then from there yeah once it was through Kendra, and then we went to copy editing. The copy editing was really just continuing to hone the language and just getting it sharper and sharper and sharper and cleaner and cleaner and cleaner between Kender and the copy editor. Those were places where we were adding extra explanations like those are, you know you know where they would come in and like. Can you give an example of this? Can you give us a story of this or a copy ettor was would say you know this is a pretty expected in my case problem pair. Can you give us something? That's a little bit more. You know not as not as done, and I was like- Oh okay- and this gave me a chance to bring in a different client example, so yeah page shoe and their process enormously supportive of getting the book to be where it is, and I would say even like the last thing that really affected how the book looks feels and reads was the was their designers. It was very collaborative process. I had a pretty well established, look and field...

...for my brain and my stuff to begin with, and so it was. It was very interesting for us to think through together. How do I take this very bulleted book in a lot of ways is a very bulleted book, and how do you make it look, read and feel like a book book right rather than just like a series of memos, and I think they did a real great. They were wonderful and helping to really think through how to make it readable from that perspective as well. This really is a theme that comes up a lot in this podcast that writing a grave book is a collaborative process and there's a team, and even though there's an author, and that might be the one person's name who's on the front of the book, there's always people behind the scenes who are helping out to one degree or another to make that a successful product. Yeah Yeah and I really love the philosophy. The page two brings to the table, which is that you know that partnership is an equal exchange of expertise because they very much make their stand on the fact that you, as the subject matter of masters, they like to say not just expert but the subject matter master. You know what it is that you need to say about your idea and who it's for and what's going to be successful, and they also know. What's going to be successful from you know, a from a readership standpoint and from a you know, from a retailer standpoint, I didn't end up doing trade publication. I did a did print on a man with my book, but even their ability to help me think through. That was great because it meant that I could take what I knew about myself. My work, my audience, what I wanted the book to do for me and my business and they could bring all the knowledge that they had and expertise and bring that to bear, and we could just make those decisions of as we went so that you know. I know that I feel about my book away that a lot of my friends who have gone with traditional publishers. Unfortunately don't- and that is- I feel about my book- that it is absolutely kind of the best representation of what I wanted and hoped my book to be as it could possibly have been like. I have no complaints about my book whatsoever like I am. It is exactly what I wanted it to be. It looks how I wanted to be like it reads: How I wanted it it. It seems to be accomplishing what I wanted it to do, based on reviews and and feedback I'm getting from folks unbidden, and I don't know that everybody can say that about their relationship with publishers, but I also know that it is a far better book because I didn't just go with. You know an editor that I hired and a bunch of you know and a designer that I hired whatever like I for me, it was really important to have people who just really know the publishing world to find that intersection, because I think you just based on the work that I do. I mean we are all subject to confirmation bias and we are blind to the faults in our own work, because our brains really won't. Let us be anything but awesome with her own work, and I think that it was really important for for me to have that outside perspective, for them to push in certain cases and say you know, we know you have the section in here. We don't think it's the right. We don't think it's right that you have this level of detail like we the their need. You would you consider removing it, and I was always up to me, but I took it seriously when they would come back and say this feels like a level too deep, or this doesn't make sense. You know I. The book was already partially layout when I completely revamped the chapter on what I call the problem and because that was based on a feedback that I could consistently see. You know the editors were getting tripped up on and I could see that there was something there's a better way to go through it that I was...

...experiencing my clients and they were. You know, they're open to that as well. I was like okay, I just need to fix this chapter and they were able to do that as well, and I think that's really important. So I mean that's, maybe not everybody's path. Maybe your path is just to get a book out, so you know for whatever reason, but it was so you know I had to get over so much mentally to get myself to write this book that I just didn't want to even entertain the fact that my book, I would do all of that effort- and it not be what I wanted it to be like that. I would be not happy with the cover, or you know that someone would tell me afterwards that there was a type O and knock wood were still like it came out in May I still haven't. Had anybody come back to me and say that they found a type of me that book is Presen, and that's just really important to me that it was that everything was executed at that standard. That's great! Now, as you mentioned, the book came out in May so it's just been a few months as of this recording that it's been out there, but you said you're happy with the results. You're happy with the reception. It's getting tell us a little bit more about the reaction, and how is this helping? You With Your Business and the goals that you have for your business for yourself for yeah, I mean so some of the things that are subtle. Anybody who has also published a book with on demand printing rather than pre printing, a run like that goes in the book stores of Trade will tell you it's a little hard to answer that question. How is it doing because it's a little opaque to understand exactly how many copies you sold it's a little bit different when you've, you know printed a you know: Five Thousand Bucks, and now there's only like twelve hundred left in the you know in the in the warehouse like well, you know that x number have sold so so that's a little odd, so I have to kind of go based on like in level payments that I get and also the level of review. So I was very excited, I'm already over a hundred reviews on Amazon and I think the rim, an the dozen sound good reads as well and their positive, thank goodness, but for me really because I went into this not as a stepping stone like this was, I did not for me and my goals for the book, as I said before, were to be either an introduction to my work or a capstone on my work. In other words, if sombody didn't know who I was or what I did or how I did it, it would be a way to say. Oh, you know what, if you really want to know more about my approach, it's come. It's all my book go, read it or if somebody had already been introduced to me, because I had spoken to you know or that somebody else has reference them. It was a way to follow up and go deeper on the ideas that they had already introduced. So my intent was that it was a thing that I just would naturally incorporate into the work that I do with clients, and now it is so yeah any time. Somebody works with me: one O one, a copy disia. The book is included. We work it into any time. I do a speaking engagement. That's part, you know, that's part of. What's bundled in is books that accompany it because, like even though I have multiple keynotes, like all, roads fled to the red thread, so it's useful to have that kind of real tactical book, because it's the how of all my talks and from that perspective, it's really it's real, really working, because my hope was that people who a it would add that depth to of larger engagements, which it already is and B- and this was totally self serving. That would make my my client consulting work, much more efficient, because people were already coming in with a knowledge of what we were trying to do and they had a reference book to go back and go okay. You know we're supposed to be working on this piece of our red thread this week. They can go to the book and go all right. What's the truth, you know what are the criteria for a good, true saving again? Are We meeting that etc? So all of that's been great and that's been, and from from that perspective, it really has been doing exactly what I wanted to do. That's great! Well, Tamson! It's been great chatting with you here on the show. If people want to reach out you and connect with you, ere's the best...

...place for them to find you best, Pi Places Tamson Webster M, so that's Tam Sen, webster, like the dictionary and all things dams at. Are there perfect thanks so much Thamson for men with this here today on the published author podcast put. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed this episode and don't forget to subscribe and if you want to spread the word, please give us a five star rating review and tell your friends to subscribe to were available on Apple, podcasts, spotify and everywhere else. You listen to podcast and if you're, an entrepreneur interested in writing and publishing a non fiction book to Grow Your Business and make an impact. Is it published author Com for show notes for this podcast and other free resources, a.

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